The Tech Marketing Podcast

36 | Innovation Insights 4 - Why do we innovate?

August 08, 2021 Twogether Season 3 Episode 2
The Tech Marketing Podcast
36 | Innovation Insights 4 - Why do we innovate?
Show Notes Transcript

Jon & Harry investigate the core principles of innovation and discuss why it is so important to stay ahead of the curve. Do new ideas come from working hard and thinking big? Or are they stumbled upon by people in the right place at the right time?

Speaker 1:

Hi, everyone. It's wonderful to have you all black on the tech technology market. We going Tech technology.

Speaker 2:

Nailed it. Absolutely nailed it in one. I knew you weren't.

Speaker 3:

Now we've just gotta get past the intro. By about 1:00 AM we might actually have something that we can turn into a podcast.<laugh>.

Speaker 1:

Hello everyone. Hello, fellow listeners. Welcome back to the Tech Marketing podcast. Joining me in the booth, all as always, is on my wonderful co-host, Harry. Harry, say hello.

Speaker 2:

Hello,

Speaker 1:

<laugh>. Joining me today is one of our newest recruits into the Together family. Jonathan, who's gonna, who's joined us on as the Director of Innovation and Partnerships. So, Jonathan, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and what your excited is, join together about.

Speaker 3:

Hello podcast listeners. Um, I have been in the world of B2B for over 10 years. Um, I have, uh, works on innovation pieces, uh, across video, immersive technology, uh, and the whole gamut of b2b, uh, and super excited to join the Together gang, uh, to continue my innovation journey and, and help our clients with their, uh, campaigns to make them more successful.

Speaker 1:

So firstly, let's get started. What, what is innovation?

Speaker 3:

I think for me, innovation is, you know, it's obviously about solving unsolved challenges, achieving goals in new and efficient ways. But for me it's really about aligning strategic thinking with creativity and technology to, to make that happen. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

<affirmative>, I've written down small revolutions in a process or product.

Speaker 1:

The thing is, I think both of you are a little bit right there, and Jonathan, you've, you've, you've hit on the hit a target there of, actually, I'm gonna say a misconception I think a lot of people have about innovation. Like, is innovation only about technology?

Speaker 3:

Essentially, it's just doing things in a, a more effective, efficient way to, to solve an unsolved challenge.

Speaker 1:

I think there's a great Peter, uh, Drucker quote, you've got to keep innovating as a business. If you don't, you're just yours just standing still. Um, and so for innovation to, for me it together, and really why I'm excited to have you, to have yourself on board and, and us pushing forward is about continuously moving that needle forward. Um, not just in our own, uh, in our marketing campaigns, but also in the processes and everything else that we do around it. Because innovation really should touch every single part of a business.

Speaker 3:

Uh, I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, it's, it's also, you know, I, I see myself a, you know, part of my role, uh, together is about, um, sort of basically seeing opportunities in different areas and, and educating them about people, about them, because, you know, in any business, uh, and the larger the business is, the, the more this happens is there's lots of people doing, uh, pieces of innovation, uh, uh, at a small scale, at a large scale. And it's about, um, it's about highlighting those innovations and making sure that everybody understands them. So, so everyone can take advantage of them. Them. I think that's a really crucial point.

Speaker 1:

M do you think innovation is misunderstood? Like, could you, you mentioned it's important to get people to understand the innovations. Like wh what's the, what's the challenge there?

Speaker 3:

I think the, uh, one of the challenges is that people are, um, you know, they're, they're so busy and focused on their specific goals, um, and they, uh, have, uh, a list of things that they have to do. I think everybody wants to innovate, but do you have the bandwidth and the time to do it? Um, so I think what's, you know, for me it's really crucial, um, for, for any business that that wants to innovate is to have a, a, a dedicated, uh, structure around that. Have some, have some KPIs around innovation. Have dedicated people who are focused on innovation work with teams and partners who are innovation focused. I think, you know, you, you really have to have a framework in place to, uh, to foster innovation because, you know, we, we all got so many things going on. Unless you kind of really make innovation a priority, it's, it's very easy for it to just be something that you always want to do, but, but don't.

Speaker 1:

So, so what kind of techniques could you apply? What kind of frameworks could you apply to to encourage innovation?

Speaker 3:

I think, uh, as I said, KPIs, I think having a KPIs around, uh, innovation are, uh, an important element to it. I think having sort of setting out a, a culture around innovation is really important as well. And I think having, uh, people at the top of a business to champion that, and that's sort of one of the things that I absolutely love about together. Uh, and one of the reasons that they were top of my list when I was out there looking for my next, my next role, um, was that I, I really saw that there was this kind of, you know, this real drive, uh, to, to to, to be innovative and to kind of, uh, create that, that culture and, and help create that culture of innovation for clients as well and, and in their marketing team. So I think having that, that kind of, that that culture of innovation that, that comes from the top down, um, is really important. And, and that will really kind of drive everything forward.

Speaker 2:

I think we are saying together that you've brought it up before, um, that we don't frame in terms of innovation, but you've said that you encourage all of your team to have hobbies and uh, and kind of outside passions. And I think that this is essential to innovation. When we, when whenever you learn a new skill, you increase the rarity of the type of mind that you have by an order of magnitude. Let's say you run your, your team and everyone has the ability to code. My hypothesis is if you are someone who has a real passion for coding as well as gardening, you are more likely to innovate within coding than someone who is purely obsessed with coding or carpentry or anything of the sort. And it's the, it's kind of the intersection of these, uh, of these hobbies and thought processes and, you know, all the new neurons that are opened up that, that, um, that innovation comes from. And this is, this is often true without throughout history, is that someone will go, oh, well it was my passion for this that made me realize something else over here. And I think that that is something we should try and breed. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

I, I think that's a a a fantastic point.

Speaker 1:

A absolutely everyone should have a side project. I know it can be a side hustle as assuming it doesn't con conflict with work, but, or, or some kind of side project, cuz you're exactly right. Like, it just breeds like, the one thing that you can't teach is passion. And it, you know, you've got a br you've got to bring that, you know, right to the surface. And you're exactly right. You might have a, a coder who also loves gardening. Um, and that will bring a diversity. Uh, and I'm gonna use the diversity word here cause I think it's absolutely crucial. It brings a diversity of thought, which, you know, without that you, you wouldn't be able to innovate because garden, you know, there may be a, a concept in growing tomatoes in a greenhouse that they can apply to a coding element that then sp spawns a whole new, uh, language. Um, uh, so you're exactly right. I think, I think that's key.

Speaker 2:

And the other thing I would say is that innovation is something that more often than not is, is stumbled upon rather than lifted out from someone being genius. I think that there's a problem right now in our society as a whole, in that brilliant minds are being funneled almost in their entirety to universities where they're encouraged to be thinking in the theoretical and the, the, the existence of the tinker has really diminished. There are not many people nowadays that spend their time tinkering in garage and stuff. This is much more likely something that, you know, your granddad did or something of the sort. And I think that so many inventions and, and brilliant innovations have been just found by accident, by people with spare time and, and a little bit of enthusiasm. And we should, we should, we should somehow try and and filter that in. But I'm not sure how you, you bring that to a B2B space,

Speaker 3:

There's gotta be a a, a balance between, uh, that deliberate strategy and emergent strategy. And yeah, I, I was lucky enough, um, a few months ago to be able to take part in, uh, Harvard Business Schools, uh, online, um, disruptive, uh, strategy program. And that's one of the key things that it pointed out is, you know, yes, you, you want to have that deliberate strategy, but emergent strategy is just as important. And they highlighted loads of examples, uh, where, where actually, uh, a business has kind of over a period of time through, uh, innovating and, and, and trying new things. They've, they've found their way and, and they've, um, they've emerged with a, a, a really, uh, a a really winning, uh, business strategy through that kind of emergent process. So I think, think it is definitely getting that balance between thinking that you've got all of the answers at the beginning. Uh, yes, it's important to have that informed view. Um, but you do, there, there is, there has to be an element of trial and error.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the key things with any innovation, and, and this is you're coming right back to your point, Jonathan, at the beginning about, and listeners, this is not an advert for together. Although if you are interested in, in, in working as a, are interested in a job with us, then do, of course go to our website. But the, you know, it, it is about building a culture where failure is accepted. Like you need to be able to allow people to say it's okay to try something. And it's, it's perfectly okay to fail as long as you l as long as you learn from it. Um, and I'd like to think we have, we have that attitude here, here it together. So I think, you know, it comes, it comes back into that. I guess the other thing I would say is, you know, are we, are we saying here, and Harry, you were talking about kind of people tinkering and innovation being a little bit accidental. Um, you know, I I was reading the other day about someone in, you know, typically inventing a product in their garage and it spawned this entire multimillion pound business and all that kind of stuff. Like, but are you saying it creating a framework for innovation, creating a structure behind it is difficult? Is that, is that what we're saying here? Or is that, is that possible?

Speaker 2:

I was saying, I don't know how to, I think that much innovation comes from practical tinkering and I don't know how to, how to kind of shoehorn that into what it is that we do, because who has time? How can I convince someone at C-Suite to say, Hey, we should have someone that just kind of tries little things and spends all their days coming up with probably nothing for two years.

Speaker 1:

It, it's a real risk, right? And so, uh, I'll go through the kind of structure that we are using now to now here it together and, you know, we, I I'm gonna be completely open. We actually stole this from another company. Um, so Joel, uh, buffer originally presented this to me, and I think he, uh, requisitioned this from LinkedIn and, and Microsoft and, and Google and so on. Um, and I think it's important to try and break down your types of innovation into kind of three buckets. Um, and so we call the first one, and this is where you should be spending 70% of your time on just improving your day-to-day. Um, at, you know, in our presentations we call that the brilliant basics. We just want to, we just want to create a process that is more efficient so that we can provide a better service for our customers. Um, and so you, that that is your typical incremental type innovation. Um, you then got your, your, we call, we used to call them extend, um, but your 20% of your time where you, where you are looking for natural improvements, um, and that's your, your 10% marginal improvements. So there might be think it might be a new service that's an obvious addition to an existing service, or it might be a new, um, uh, I'm just trying, trying to think of something else. It might be a new product, but it's not, you're not inventing something. You are, you are, there's a natural fit to to, to improving it. Um, and we call that test and learn. Um, in, in, in our space, we, you know, if if there's, there might be a new opportunity we wanna test and learn into that space, and then the final 10%. So all of the sexy stuff that you've been talking about that a lot of our comes to, lot of our clients probably think that comes to mind instantly. Um, when you think of innovation, we only allocate the last 10% and those are the 10 x ideas, those are the right, we're gonna create something in virtual reality or we're going to invent an entirely new market. And so I always think it's important to try and break down your briefs, break down your innovation into those three buckets because it's so easy to, to end up being that person. Like you said, Harry, that spends two years in a garage tinkering and has nothing to show for it. Um, uh, if you don't allocate your time to say, well, I still need to improve what I'm doing day to day, I still need to, to to, to incrementally, um, push things forwards.

Speaker 3:

I think that's a really good point though, if you let, it applies to so many areas, those marginal gains, isn't it? I mean, you look at something like f1, a tiny tweak to a CAD file, change the aerodynamics, and that, that makes a, a 10th or a hundredth of a second difference in times of a lap speed. Uh, and that can be the difference between winning or losing. Right. You know, so, and I think it applies to, to everything, you know, those marginal gains make a, can make a big difference. So we shouldn't just be looking for the big wins. How can we, how can we, how can we make those small improvements?

Speaker 1:

You've, you've mentioned F1 though, which is really fascinating as a subject because that's one where they're actively trying to slow down some innovation, isn't it? Um, you know, formula One, well, formula one of course sponsored by many, many tech brands at the moment, um, is heavily driven. The success of teams is heavily driven by the budgets that they have. Um, so if you are a big budget team, like, you know, your Red Bull or your Mercedes or your McLaren, you have a huge amount of resources to do wind, wind tunnel testing, fluid dynamic testing, you know, computer modeling, all this stuff. And so they've actually, um, and it's, it's fascinating. Some of the, some of the, um, I'm not gonna say the science, but the mechanics behind it is they limit the amount of server time that these comp, these teams are allowed to run because the big teams can just, can have the budget to rent huge server farms and use machine learning and all this kind of stuff to, to create incr, invent crazy designs. So they've actually said, no, you, you know, you have a limited amount of, uh, of, of hours that you can run, uh, virtual wind tunnel testing and so on. Um, you know, and I, and I think they're even starting to limit other elements as they move through. Like a lot of the part, a lot of the car is actually now standardized, so they can't innovate with things like the electronics, uh, as much as they used to.

Speaker 2:

I was gonna say, I think F1 is lacking innovation. Uh, I grew up with wacky racers and, uh, let me tell you, that was, that was innovative.

Speaker 3:

I think, I think there's a bit of a battle there between kind of the, the people who are into the science and the technology and, you know, count myself as in, in, in that tribe. And it's all about like the pursuit of perfection in technology and the kind of motor sport purists who are kind of harking back to the hunt, the shunt days and the, the center days when it was, you know, still about the technology, but a lot more about the driver, you know? So, um, but um, yeah, I mean, I find it fascinating and, you know, it just shows that actually the, the automotive sector, you know, innovation is, is pushing that from a, uh, a hardware solution, either car to a software solution. I mean, you look at, uh, Tesla, you know, it's, it's, you know, all of the upgrades are software upgrades, aren't they? So yeah, it's, it's interesting how, uh, an interesting you pointed out about the, the technology brands, um, being sort of heavily, uh, invested in the, in the sports sponsorship around F1 as well. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:

<affirmative>, I mean, f1, I, I think F1 is quite an innovative sport, but they, you know, they, they've moved to this point space system, so you can pick where you want to innovate and they, they move and where what, what you want to change, or they've moved, you know, they've, they've limited fluid dynamics and so on. So it's, you know, it's a shame that you couldn't just take all those limits off and see what people create. But you can also see, you know, to have diversity, which we talked about before in in teams. You've got to have some of, some of these, uh, some of these changes in there. So we've talked about some of the frameworks that you could apply, like, I mean, I think we've discussed some of the pitfalls there as well, like innovate, you know, sticking too much to the 10 x instead of the 10% and the one and the 1% gains. What are, what are some of the other pitfalls that you could experience with innovation?

Speaker 3:

I think just getting it wrong and just thinking that innovation is just about sort of throwing new technology into the mix for the sake of it. You know, we, we can't be technology mag pires, there's a lot of shiny things out there. It's about identifying what's a good fit for your strategy and, and, and what you're trying to achieve. I think that's probably the, the most fundamental thing. Um, out of all of it, really kind of being strategic about your, your, your choices that you make around innovation.

Speaker 1:

I I think you've hit, you, you've hit a really interesting point there. Like a lot of people think innovation is just about the tech, and it sounds strange talking on a tech marketing podcast. It really isn't like, it can be about how you, in how you, uh, brief it can be how, how you add things together, you know, add two existing products together rather than looking for an entirely new product. Um, so I think it's, it's understanding that innovation exists in all those, all those forms is, is kind of the first learning and, and pitfall to avoid. I'd probably say the biggest thing for me, you know, having done this now for, for many years, is understanding there is a difference between an idea and there's a, an execution. Like, it's great to come up with an idea, but an idea on its own is not innovation. Innovation is the, is is the idea executed well or not even executed well, just executed at all. Um, and so, so many people you, I would say sit on their hands with, with some of the greatest ideas, but if you don't bring it to market, if you don't attempt it, um, that you, you're never gonna get anywhere.

Speaker 3:

I think that's, it's, it is, it is important to contextualize that with the of last point that you made, John, because, you know, you could say that like, that if innovation is only, uh, innovation, if it's, if it's the successful execution of it, then that actually may stop some people from doing what we talked about at the beginning, which is you've gotta try things to, um, but I think that's the, like, the process of innovation. But you know, ultimately you do have to have your eyes on the prize. What do we want to achieve here? Like, you know, like, let, we need to make something happen. You know, we don't just wanna be those tinkerers sitting in the garage for, for 10 years and, and, and not delivering anything. But, um, at the, but at the same time, not being afraid to try things and, and, and, and make the mistakes that you have to make on the way to, to get there.

Speaker 2:

My point on tinkerers, okay, was incredibly pro tinkerer. Let the audience know that, okay,<laugh>, now when I said, uh, that the tinkerer might do nothing for two years, okay, there was, sorry,

Speaker 3:

Spurious claims. I, I said 10, I've, I've kind

Speaker 2:

Of, there was the implication that on the third year they would bring home the bacon Okay. With the value, but you'd have to wait for it. Okay? And if you are out there in a garage in nine years deep, don't listen to that, man. Okay? Keep pushing forwards. You, they'll, you're right on the cusp

Speaker 3:

Talk, talking of tinkerers in garage. Has anybody ever seen Colin Furs before? Like anyone who's listening to this podcast, if you haven't seen Colin Furs, just Google, uh, or, or put him into YouTube. He's like basically a Nazi professor, uh, in the UK who invents crazy gadgets. And like he, uh, gets sponsored by, uh, like movie studios. So he'll make like a, a a, uh, retractable metal Wolverine claw that's powered by H Hydraulics. He makes like jet, he like makes jet powered bikes and like all kinds of crazy stuff. Like, you just have to check him out.

Speaker 1:

So I'd say my favorite thing is, is his underground shed. Yes. Like, that's, that's

Speaker 3:

By underground shed bunker is, is epic.

Speaker 1:

That is, that is a personal favorite of mine because I, I really want an underground shed bunker. So

Speaker 2:

On these pitfalls, I think that one of them is, and it's hard to avoid, especially when you make an innovation team, is that the concept that innovation comes from the top or comes from the innovation team, um, that, that is hard and often, and if you are new, and if you are young, which I think where a lot of innovation comes from, innovation can feel on occasion like insubordination. You know, if you are gonna go to someone and say, Hey, I honestly think that we are doing this, it's difficult for you to say, I don't, I don't think this is a good way to do things. You know, if you are brand new, what do you know? Who the hell are you? And so it's difficult. I thought that, the example I thought of was, uh, there was an old cravendale advert for who was the first person to think of milking the cow. And I thought if I was that guy, I wouldn't want to go to to Buzzby, like listen, uh, mate, I've been trying a few things in the, uh, in the,

Speaker 3:

I've been tinkering in the ship

Speaker 2:

<laugh>, but yeah, exactly. I've been tinkering with those dangly things on the bottom of the cow<laugh> turns out the white stuff tastes great,<laugh>, but I, um, but the other thing is, uh, you, there needs to be, in my opinion, well, let me pitch you this. Let me pitch you, let's, let's, let's, let's go for a hypothetical, okay? Let's say we're not a tech marketing company, but we make widgets, the three of us, okay? And we're all working from home. And over the last year during lockdown, I have found a way to make my widget machine make a widget with three spins of the widget wheel rather than four spins of the widget wheel. So we'll say I've, I'm 25% more efficient than you guys, and I've gotten to the point where you guys are busting your balls to get done by five 30 and by three o'clock I'm done with my daily quota. Okay? I'm 25% better off. There is a problem in, do I tell my boss about this? There needs to be heavily incentivized for me to do so, cuz what is he going to give me that is better than what I've given myself, which is effectively a 25% pay rise. If well think, well think about it. If I go, if I go to you and say, Hey, I've worked out how to do this 25% faster. And he says, Hey Harry, that's amazing, pat on the back now you can do an extra 25%. And I don't, and I don't receive anything other than, than that I've screwed myself. There was, I was much better off keeping that close to my chest and having an extra two and a half hours.

Speaker 3:

Have you, Harry, this is a question. Have you found a way to, to, to make podcast editing 25% faster?

Speaker 2:

Well, when I worked in radio, I actually did work out how to do something about twice as fast. Um, and first of all, I was met with hostility because, because it was kind of an obvious solution. But let's say if, if after that I was just gonna be given another job and I wasn't gonna be rewarded for that, it doesn't make sense. If I'm, if I am, if I'm a, if I don't benefit directly, I might better off keeping that to myself. I think this is a genuine thing. I'm certain that there are employees at companies right now. In fact, I was listening to a podcast with coders, um, and developers and they were saying the first thing you should try to do in a dev job, they were talking to other devs, it was a dev podcast, is try to automate as much of what you do as possible and tell no one about it.

Speaker 1:

No, it's, it's a really, like did you ever hear about the story that the guy that subcontracted out all of his work? Yeah, so I think, I think he worked at like Verizon or something, right? He, and, and they, they found he was the top programmer for like 10 languages, like a ludicrous about, and he was the most productive by, by far. Um, and after a while they found out he was using his VPN token with a team in China to execute on the work. Now, aside from the, some of the security challenges, which is probably what they were worried about, like I, I would've given that guy a promotion. A hundred

Speaker 2:

Percent. A hundred percent.

Speaker 1:

He's just, he's just, he's just, he like, he just tr doubled or tripled his workload, um, yet he, he got fired in the end. So I, you know, I think there is, you're right, there is a, there's a psychological safety that has to be applied with innovation that, that says that I think you are one, that you are safe to bring it to the table and secondly, that you are safe to be rewarded with it. Yeah. If you do innovate, um, I think, I think it's a very valid point, Harry, and, and it's interesting that, that developers have that view because it's not the view that we try and build here, but, you know, have the view that, you know, you should automate it and then not tell anyone that's ridiculous. Um, you know, it, it, it you should be, um, sharing and and moving the collective forward.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. But that needs to be incentivized because if, if, if the individual does not feel that they will benefit from a, let, let, let's say back to the widget analogy, the entire company would go up by 25% profits. That is an enormous, enormous gain to be had by the, by the discovery I've found. I doubt un unless you give me a 25% pay rise, I'm not better off telling you about it. So there needs to be the concept or the, or the knowledge that if I come up with something brilliant, there's real incentive and reward on there's gold at the end of that rainbow.

Speaker 3:

I think for me, it's, it goes back to creating that culture around innovation and like, what do we mean by that? Uh, we don't mean that innovation necessarily comes from the top. It means that all of the, uh, ingredients are there to, to foster that innovation at every level of a business. And, you know, one of those things is, um, is giving people recognition to the things that they do and actually demonstrating that by being, uh, a, a kind of cheerleader or a, uh, advocate or somebody who is sort of pushing innovation forward in a business, uh, you, you, you will get reward, you'll get recognition. It won't, might not necessarily be a a, a direct attachment of reward to every innovative idea that you come up with, but it, it shows that actually people who are part of driving innovation forward are recognized and they progress in their careers. And I think, you know, it is, it is the, that those, those, uh, those values need to be, uh, they need to come from, from, from the leadership and, and, and, and make sure that at every layer people understand that that's how this business works. That, you know, people can challenge the status quo. That they will get recognition for their ideas that, you know, the, the manager won't steal that idea and, and not pass on that recognition. I think that's absolutely crucial.

Speaker 1:

It's an interesting point as well. Actually, there was a, this, I keep, keep coming back to this term, psychological safety at the moment. And I think there's a, you know, Harry, you, you, you mentioned it before, like you are, if you put forward an idea, quite often you are met with hostility. And so the, it's inbuilt in all of our, actually even in our brain's chemistry, that we need to agree and conform with everyone else. Um, and so one of the key things with innovation is encouraging people to challenge the status quo to, um, you know, to speak up. Um, cuz I think they did a study a few years back where they put people in a, uh, MRI machine and, and got them to, to disagree with things and they found that actually it's like, you know, parts of the brain, um, associated with discomfort and so on start lighting up. And so it's, you know, it's very discomforting for you to go into a situation and be like, I don't believe it should be done this way. Uh, and to question the way things have always been been executed. Um, but it's necessary in order to innovate, it's necessary to, to do that. So you, you, you're, I think we're all right. You need that culture where it's safe to have that discussion, whether you are the, the, the director of innovation and partnerships, or the cto or you're just the, you know, the, the receptionist. Um, you know, and together we try and allow innovation to come from anywhere. Actually, I, i, I kind of try to take the app, same approach that many universities do, which is, you know, that innovation can come from any source. It's just, it's our job, um, to, to help them execute on it and make it a success, um, one way or another. Um, and when I say success, I mean, you know, the learnings from it or it be successful, it doesn't need to necessarily always be a blow away, a brilliant

Speaker 2:

Success. There's a theory about tribes as well, that, that you need two, there's two types of people that need to balance each other out. So let's say we're all in a tribe and we're nomadic, we rock up to a new place. There will be, and let's say there's a new, a new, a new bush, uh, that we haven't seen before. It's got some berries on it. There's gonna be, uh, the type of people whose rank highly in openness who are gonna say, guys, a brand new type of berry, let's go. I bet it's delicious. And there's gonna be a group of people who quite rightly will say, Hey, no, we know what berries are good. We've been eating those berries for years. I see a bush over there. Let's not even go near these berries. Okay, there's nothing but trouble. What are your thoughts on this? This is what I'm interested in having the, the someone who might be considered to be of slightly more negative energy in the room, um, but actually might just be a more grounded energy in the room. Is this a useful person to have or is this person just gonna bring everyone down and make people feel like they can't say things? Uh,

Speaker 3:

Um, for me, I think, you know, that you, you've, you've hit on something really powerful there because you know, it's important to have lots of voices, that diversity of opinions and, you know, actually that person, the naysayer in the room, you know, they may actually stop you from going and grabbing a whole fist full of those berries and stuffing your face full of them. Maybe instead of grabbing a whole fist of them, you, you, you have a little tiny nibble on one, and, and then a few hours later, if you're not feeling unwell, then you might try a whole one. And then the next morning, if you wake up and you, you're alive, then you know, you might decide, actually that berry was pretty delicious and it didn't do anything bad to me. So let's, let's have a whole bowlful.

Speaker 1:

Uh, I, I'm, I'm with you. I think there needs to be, uh, and just to kind of summarize some of these frameworks and pitfalls that we've been talking about, like, I think that, I think I completely agree there needs to be diversity in the room. And so having, uh, a naysayer, um, may not be a negative thing, uh, in, in the, in the grand scheme of things. Um, you know, we've, it makes me think of like the, the film inside out, if you remember with the, we've got the little characters, right? If everyone was all the positive sunny characters all the time, um, we may get a lot done, but we may, we won't have that diversity of thought to make us go, well, hang on, perhaps we should slow down with this idea a little bit and, and, and dull this one, this other idea up. Like, so you need, you need that diversity there. But to, to kind of take us through some of the different things we talked about. I mentioned, uh, some of the frameworks you can use to break up innovation. I think we've also took mentioned some really powerful words here. Like diversity has come at, come across multiple times, um, which I think is really, really key. I think, Jonathan, you also mentioned curiosity, um, like being curious has to, has to be a key part of it. And we've talked a lot about having the safety to make mistakes and to, and to question things. Um, what, what else, what else do you think we can tell our listeners about how to structure their innovation and how, and, and what things to avoid?

Speaker 3:

I think for me, one of the best sort of theories around innovation and disruption that I've come across is the jobs to be done theory. So rather than sort of create it, build it, and they will come actually understanding, uh, the problems and challenges that your, uh, customers or your audience are facing. And then solving for that innovating based on what people actually need. Um, and you know, it sounds simple, but I think it's something that often gets, uh, forgotten. Often things get done the wrong way round. Um, so yeah, that, that would be a key thing for me.

Speaker 1:

So how, how does that work, Jonathan? Like how do you, how do you structure things in that, in isn't that framework?

Speaker 3:

So a good, uh, example that I saw was, uh, when Burger King, uh, were looking at, uh, their milkshakes and they identified that they were selling, uh, milkshakes, um, at, uh, a certain time in the morning, and they were sort of curious about why that was. Um, so, uh, they sent someone to stand there and just just survey people as they were coming, uh, out of, uh, the bi king store. And basically it turned out that, um, drivers were buying a milkshake, uh, on their, uh, way to work as something to do to keep them occupied, um, during the journey. And, and when they got that feedback, they, uh, they asked them, well, you know, why is it a milkshake that you go for? They were like, well, it's just easy and it lasts for a long time. And that lasting for a long time that that kind of continuation of the experience was crucial. Like a banana didn't do it as well, nothing did it as well as a milkshake. Um, and so by understanding what the customer's job to be done was, which was I want something to keep me occupied over a long period of time, they decided to put chunks in it to make it even more difficult to slurp away while you're going to, uh, along in the car. So, you know, I think that, you know, that's a really, um, visceral example of, of, of, of, of that. But I think it applies to everything just like, what, what are people's problems? What are they trying to do? What are your customers, you know, what are they trying to do? What can you actually do to, to make their lives easier? If you answer that, if you, if you innovate around that, then you know, you'll, you'll get success on the back

Speaker 1:

Of it. But, but I think this thing really powerful there, which is actually innovation is about the outcome, not the output, right? So it is about how you can make a customer, it's about how you could make a customer happier. Um, and I think that that's gotta be key at the end of it. It might be making something more efficient, doing it quicker, um, or it might be inventing a new product that, that meets their needs better. Um, so I think, I think that there's something really powerful there in saying it's, it's got to be about the outcome. Well, did you ever see the documentary on the McDonald's, um, milkshake makers? Have you seen this? No. Like there's a whole problem in McDonald's. We have lives, John. Yeah, there's a whole problem in this<laugh>. I have actually watched this, I think it might be on Netflix, but there's a whole problem in McDonald's with basically that, like in the US especially if you go to a McDonald's, there's like a 33% chance on like a relatively high chance that then their milkshake maker's not gonna be working. And this guy got so annoyed with it, like he made a map of all the McDonald's of broken milkshake makers in the US and you can go there right now, it's live. Um, and essentially what the, what they found is there's this relationship between like the machine that every franchise is made to buy is basically a pile of crap. Um, and gives these incredibly cryptic error messages that say like, oh, there's a problem in the tank when you clean it. And, and so it means that quite often the staff don't know how to fix it and most of the time it's just they filled it up too much or they filled it up too little and so on. And so they have to call out the engineer, which the franchisees have to call out, which then costs them like$300 and half the time they just get too annoyed that it costs too much. Um, and so this company made this add-on that you plug into the machine and it literally is like, just do this dum it like tells them what to do to fix it. And McDonald's were like, no, you can't do that, because they just want, there's so much of an in intertwined relationship between the company that makes the ice cream machine or the milkshake machine in this case and McDonald's, that they don't want anyone to come in and and take over. It's, anyway, it's fascinating. It, it's a story, it is a story on innovation in a strange

Speaker 2:

Way. I was gonna push us forward towards the innovation and creativity thing.

Speaker 1:

Go, go for it

Speaker 2:

Harry, because I feel we've mentioned creativity a lot today. I think that it is not the perfect concept for what we're trying. I think it can actually be a little bit of a red herring cuz I think it drags us towards the 10%, the 10 x ideas and pushes us away from where we should be spending 70% of our time. And I think that a creative mind will think, let's say we have a problem, problem, a a creative mind will think, how can I solve this problem in a brand new fantastic way? But the practical mind or the curious mind as we've brought up should be asking, has this problem already been solved? Has a similar problem already been solved? Is there an existing solution to a different problem that solves this problem? You know, if when we design, you know, fighter pilots and stuff, we don't come up with, you know, we don't spend hours thinking, oh, how should we make this nose nowadays we look at different birds and we go, that big is bang on what we are trying to do. And we just, we just take that and that, that I think is, is an important notion as well.

Speaker 3:

I, I I think you're spot on Hart. Like if we, I think there's another misconception around innovation as well. Like, I think a lot of people think that innovation is inventing comp something completely new. But like if you were to name like, who are one of the most innovative companies of the, uh, 21st or 20th or 21st century, you'd probably say yeah, if you asked a panel of people, I'm sure a number of them would say Apple. And you look at some of their most successful products, they didn't invent the MP3 player, you know, they, the iPod was just taking something that already existed and making it, uh, better for the consumer. You know, linking that to the I store, just pulling these things together that already existed to to, to create an improvement. And they've done that time and time again. What innovation is for your company isn't necessarily reinventing the wheel, it's finding stuff that either other companies are doing or other sectors are doing, or even in your own organization that other teams are doing.

Speaker 2:

The reason I like the Apple thing was that Steve Jobs has a great, which was he gives the most difficult jobs to the laziest

Speaker 1:

Employees. That's actually Bill Gates. Bill Gates said

Speaker 2:

That. Well, the whole thing's getting cut then,

Speaker 3:

Mate. A podcast wouldn't be a podcast quote on it. Come God.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think, I think it was Martin Luther King<laugh> who

Speaker 4:

Said,

Speaker 1:

He said the iPod.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.